Wednesday, 6 March 2013

James Donoghue and Juliana Boyle and connections

James Donoghue and Juliana Boyle AND connections
Results of searches in Dublin and conclusions
I spent a week in Dublin recently at the National Archives, the Valuation Office and the Registry of Deeds.  What did I discover?
To recap – there were two important landholding records.  The Tithe Applotment Books (1825-37) and the Griffiths Valuation (1847-64) were used for taxation purposes.  We can only glean who the head of household was, unlike census records in which the whole family is listed.  Unfortunately most of the pre 1901 census records were destroyed in 1922 during the Civil War.
In the National Archives they hold the notebooks used in Griffiths Valuation and these hold all the detail which was summarised in the final document in 1853 for the civil parishes we are primarily interested in.  The notebooks available for these parishes were the Tenure Books and they yielded some really good stuff.  They showed the occupiers pre 1848, in 1848 and in 1851.
In the Valuation Office are held the Cancelled and Current Land Books which show all changes in holdings from 1859.
The Registry of Deeds added nothing to our store of family knowledge but I did make some progress on our family’s landlords’ events.
Before I launch into names you might like to look at the latest version of the family tree via the link above.  I suggest you print a copy to help with all the names in this article.
The map below from the 1841 Ordnance Survey will also acquaint you with the main townlands we are interested in.
Land records in Benmore/Ballyduff
1824 – the Tithe Applotment Books
We already knew that Sylvester Donoghue was on a smallholding just behind the church on the west side of the village.  He only paid £1 rent.  His son Bartholomew was on another adjacent piece of land called Madegan’s Holding paying £2 p.a.

Sylvester’s brother Bartholomew was over on the east side and paying £11 so it must have been a larger plot.

Pre 1848 – the Tenure Books

By this time Sylvester and both Bartholomews were no longer in Ballyduff.  Where did they go?

However living in a house & garden at no.3 is Jude (or Juliana) Donohoe and she is living rent free which suggests a special relationship with the landlord Thomas A Stoughton as I have not found many such cases.  Living next to her at no.2 is Paddy Donohoe.  He is probably James and Julia’s son who married Catherine Dee from Knoppoge.  Living next to Paddy is a Simon Halloran about whom more later.

The most interesting find was over on the east side in a very small townland called Farranedmond.  I suspect this may have been where Bartholomew was located in 1824, only in his case the area was called East Benmore.
In Farranedmond I found our James and I suspect his son Thomas (called Tom), my great great grandfather, on holdings described as house and land at a rent of £5 p.a.  So it appears that James and Juliana were occupying two properties with two sons next to them.
1848 – the Tenure Books
Paddy has gone and his property is occupied by Thomas Ryle, the husband of James and Juliana’s daughter Mary.
James and Thomas are no longer shown in Farranedmond and their holdings have been taken over by Simon Halloran, whose wife is Mary Boyle, almost certainly Juliana’s niece.  They must have been close.
What happened to James?  One imagines he had either died or had moved back into the village with Juliana.  We know Thomas left for London in 1851 so where did he and his family go in the interim?
1851 – the Tenure Books
Judith (or Juliana) Donoghoe was still in the village and her rent was shown as ‘free during her own life’. 
Simon Halloran is still next door in a house and land and paying £18 rent, including Farranedmond, with a new lease granted in 1850.  Mary Ryle is in a house and land at £3 p.a.
1853 – the Griffiths Valuation
Julia, now so-called, Simon and Mary are all still living near each other in the village
1859 – Cancelled Land Books
Julia, by now well into her 80s, is no longer in her house in 1860/1 and the property appears to be split between Mary Ryle and her husband or son, Thomas.
Simon Halloran has left the village.  Where had he and his family gone?
 Simon Halloran and Mary Boyle
In my blog ‘The Search for Juliana, Elizabeth and Joanna Boyle in Causeway Parish’ I tried to work out which townlands these Donoghue spouses came from: Elizabeth from Ballincrossig perhaps and Joanna almost certainly from Sleveen.  As you can see from the map these places are very close to each other.
But I could not come to any conclusions about Juliana – until I realised the close relationship with Simon Halloran and Mary Boyle.  She must have been a favourite niece of Juliana’s and the evidence suggests the family was from Knockercreeveen between Ballincrossig and Sleveen.
All these Boyles must have been related to some degree, living in such close proximity, but that’s beyond me at this stage!
This is the case for Knockercreeveen.  A Mary was born in 1818 to Patrick Boyle and Catherine (aka Mary) Cooke.  She was the first of seven children born between 1818 and 1840: Mary, Helen (or Ellen), Thomas, Juliana, Patrick, Joanna, Honora.  Simon and Mary were sponsors to Honora.  Judith (or our Juliana) Boyle was sponsor to Joanna.  As an aside, childbearing went on for many years in Irish Catholic families, 20-25 years is not uncommon.
Patrick is the holder of 38 acres in 1825 and is paying a rent of £50 p.a – a comfortable farmer.  This also suggests that he was the eldest son and that the family was well established in this townland.
A Daniel Boyle and Catherine Tuite also had two recorded children in Knockercreeveen: Juliana in 1817 and Bridget in 1821 with James and Mary Boyle as sponsors.  Two earlier girls, Ellen in 1809 and Margaret in 1814, were born in Benmore/Ballyduff, with Patrick as a sponsor.  So I think we have two of our Juliana’s siblings in Patrick and Daniel with James and Mary as potentials as well.
We find James Boyle in Tullaghna (a mile north-west of Knockercreeveen) married to Bridget Trant.  They had three recorded children: Juliana in 1823, Patrick in 1825 (with Patrick Boyle and Mary Cooke as sponsors) and another Julia (the first must have died) in 1832 with Thomas Boyle as sponsor - probably another of our Juliana’s siblings.
Simon and Mary had their first two children - Mary in 1839 and Elizabeth in 1841 – in Knockercreeveen.  Two more, Maurice and Mary (the first one probably died) were born in 1845 and 1847 in Glanerdalliv down the road towards Ballyduff and then in 1850 Samuel in Benmore.
I have only found one other Simon Halloran in Kerry and this family was some distance away.
The other spouse families
Now that I feel reasonably comfortable that I have made good progress on the Boyles I will move on to the other spouse families. 
My priority ought to be Ellen Connor, my great great grandmother, but this will be a real challenge as there are so many Connors in north Kerry.  I may try the easier ones first!
Looking at the tree I will see what I can discover about Mary Flahive, Bridget Ferris, Catherine Dee, Maurice Nelan, Mary Scanlan, Ellen Johnson and their families as the next phase.
We know where Thomas Ryle came from because I am contact with a Ryle of today who also has Thomas and Mary on his family tree.
We have reached a stage where we need to put all these families on the many genealogical message forums, so that is a task for this next period.  It will also be clear from what we have learnt to date that many of these folk, particularly the Donoghues and Boyles, may have left Ireland so a search of the many Passenger and Immigration sites is also needed.  I will do a future blog on why and where our people may have gone.
Rod O’Donoghue March 2013

Saturday, 24 November 2012

Land and property records and our Ballyduff family

Land and property records and our Ballyduff family
By Rod O’Donoghue
In previous blogs I have referred to some of these records.  Recently the full entries in the Tithe Applotment Books were made available in digital form (summary data was available before) and I thought it might be a good idea to show those for our family.  They do raise issues with my previous thoughts, but that is inevitable as knowledge evolves, it does not appear all at once!  As all sorts of uncommon words crop up so I have provided some explanations (thanks to the net).
This article leads to a discussion of the Famine and its effect on our family.  I will deal with that in detail in a later article, so only peripheral comments will be made here.

There was a layered class structure: head landlords, gentry farmers, middling farmers, small tenant farmers, conacre cottiers and landless labourers.

A cottier in Ireland (c.1700–1850) was a person who rented a simple cabin and between one and one and a half acres of land upon which to grow potatoes, oats and possibly flax.  The ground was held on a year to year basis and rent was often paid in labour.  Usually, the land available to the cottier class was land that was considered unprofitable for any other use.

The cottier existed at subsistence level because of high rentals and the competition for land and labour.  The more prosperous cottier worked for his landlord and received cash after rent and other expenses were deducted.  There was no incentive to improve a holding as any such improvement usually prompted a rent increase.

During the early decades of the nineteenth century, the situation for cottiers worsened considerably as the population continued to expand and in turn led to the dramatic events of the Irish Famine of 1845–49. After the Famine, the cottier class almost completely disappeared (as did our family).

Conacre (a corruption of corn-acre), in Ireland, is a system of letting land, formerly in small patches or strips, and usually for tillage (growth of corn or potatoes).

During the 19th century, conacre land was normally let on an eleven month system - considered to be of sufficient length to sow and harvest a crop but without creating a relationship between landlord and tenant.  Holding the land under conacre granted no legal rights to the land with rent being paid in cash, labour or a combination of both.  Some historians believe that it was one of the factors responsible for the Great Irish Famine.

The land owner would manure the land before letting, usually at a rate of between £6 and £14 per acre in 1840.  The principal defect in the practice was the nature of its speculative system; the labourer who took the land was frequently an indigent speculator who, dependent on the weather, either made a profit or faced ruin.  During the 19th century, there were many cases of middlemen renting the land and then sub-letting on conacre to desperate landless labourers or cottiers at a high profit.

The percentage of all families residing in the different classes of housing in County Kerry are shown below

Class One: Houses of superior standing with ten rooms or more 1.5%
Class Two: Houses with five to nine rooms either a good farm or town house 11.1%
Class Three: Mud cabins/cottages with two to four rooms or windows 29.8%
Class Four: One-roomed mud cabins 57.6%

A farmer would have been considered comfortable on 50 or more acres. While the average small tenant farmer on 5 to 30 acres could usually provide a basic living for a family, the prospect of poverty always remained.

By 1841 40% of all land holdings in Kerry were between 1 and 5 acres and a further 30% in category of 15 acres or more
On the eve of famine in Kerry 87.4% lived in poor circumstances – exceptionally high compared to national figures.  While small tenant farming families were increasingly susceptible to poverty by mid 1840s this generally fell short of excessive and oppressive destitution experienced by landless labourers.

Tithe Applotment Books
The Tithe Applotment Books (TABs) are a vital source for genealogical research for the pre-Famine period, given the loss of the 1821-51 Census records. They were compiled between 1823 and 1837 in order to determine the amount which occupiers of agricultural holdings over one acre should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland (the main Protestant church and the church established by the State until its disestablishment in 1871).

There is a manuscript book for almost every civil (Church of Ireland) parish in the country giving the names of occupiers of each townland, the amount of land held and the sums to be paid in tithes. Because the tithes were levied on agricultural land, urban areas are not included.  Unfortunately, the books provide only the names of heads of family, not other family members.

The books have been digitally imaged, and a database giving surname, forename, county, parish and townland created.  All of these fields can be searched, and there is also a browse facility, which allows users to survey entire parishes and townlands.

The population of Ireland was recorded in 1841 as 8.2 million.  It would have been somewhat less than this during the 1820s and 1830s, when the Tithe Applotment Books were compiled.

Land measurement has changed a lot since the early 19th C.  I do remember being taught about acres, rods, poles and perches at school, but then I am in my 70s! 

Rods, poles and perches used in the TABs are different names for the same unit sometimes!  Other times the rod or rood is a separate measurement.  Confused?  So am I!

I read that medieval ploughing was done with oxen, up to 4 pairs at a time.  The ploughman handled the plough.  His boy controlled the oxen using a stick, which had to be long enough to reach all the oxen.  This was the rod, pole or perch. It was an obvious implement to measure the fields, such as 4 poles to the chain (another measurement!).  A BBC webpage about allotments says that ‘an allotment plot is 10 poles’ and claims that ‘A pole is measured as the length from the back of the plough to the nose of the ox’.  I suppose that if you wanted to control the front ox, you needed a pole long enough to reach!  The perch was used in the reign of Henry II (1154-1189), the pole since the 16th C, and the rod since 1450.  In the 16th century the lawful rod was decreed to be the combined length of the left feet of 16 men as they left church on a Sunday morning!  In North Devon there is a tradition that fencing, that is to say the cutting and laying of a hedge, would be done at so much a land yard, which seemed to be about 5 paces or 5.5 yards, which would equate to a rod, pole or perch. An earlier name for a rod was a gyrd which is the derivation of a yard.  Feel better?  Good...

The Donoghue siblings

Some recall on our earliest generation

Sylvester Donoghue = Mary Flahive
James Donoghue = Juliana Boyle
Ellen = Maurice Nelan
Thomas = Ellen Loughnane?

It is this group who will have been the heads of households when the TABs for Rattoo and Killury civil parishes were recorded in 1825.  All the townlands mentioned are very close to Ballyduff.

Sylvester and Bartholomew Donoghue

The entry covering Sylvester is on the top line on the sheet below and he is named as Silvy.  He was living in Chapel Land which would have been right behind the church.  His holding was only 1 acre - 0 r (rods) - 36 p (perches) and rented at £1-12s per acre.  It also says that the 36 perches were left for the Chapel, which implies some sort of relationship.  This amount of land would classify Sylvester as a cottier and very poor, so how could he have afforded a large mausoleum in Rattoo Churchyard?  The TABs only covered agricultural land and I suspect that he actually lived in Ballyduff village and like his brother James did some sort of trade. Perhaps this was his allotment.

A Bartholomew or Bat, as he is shown, also lived on Chapel Land and occupied 1 acre - 0 rods - 4 perches and paid £2/acre.  Similar comments probably apply to him as to his brother, Silvy; he was probably an artisan rather than a farmer.

But there is also another Bartholomew shown as living on East Benmore (ie in the immediate village area) who is occupying 6 acres at a rent of £1-17s/acre, and I am not sure if that is the father or the son, but suspect he is the son of Bat in Chapel Land

Whichever was the son married Bridget Ferris and there is a John Ferris in Lacka (again very close to Ballyduff) who occupied 110 acres rented at 15s/ acre because the land was poor with about half being coarse and bog land.

John Donoghue

Bishopscourt is the townland where one of the three major landlords lived, Thomas Stoughton, and is right on the edge of the village.   John occupied 14 acres and paid £1-12s/acre which is the same rent as Sylvester.

Also we find Michael Ryle in Bishopscourt with a holding of 24 acres.  He is almost certainly the father of Thomas Ryle who married James’s daughter Mary.

Ellen Donoghue = Maurice Nelan

Maurice Nelan occupied 64 acres at a rent of £1-14s/acre in East Knoppoge, which is also right on the edge of the village.  This holding would suggest a comfortable farmer and a good marriage for Ellen.

Griffiths Valuation

In 1825 Richard Griffith was appointed by the British Government to carry out a boundary survey of Ireland. He was to mark the boundaries of every county, barony, civil parish and townland in preparation for the first Ordnance Survey.  He completed the boundary work in 1844.

He was also called upon to assist in the preparation of a Parliamentary Bill to provide for the general valuation of Ireland. This Act was passed in 1826, and he was appointed Commissioner of Valuation in 1827, but did not start work until 1830 when the new 6" maps became available from the Ordnance Survey and which he was required to use as provided for by statute.

He served as Commissioner until 1868, when he was succeeded by Sir John Ball Greene CB, who then took charge of the ongoing revisions of the valuation on an annual basis. Griffith also served as Chairman of the Board of Works. He conducted two major valuation surveys. First, was the townland valuation, which was completed in the 1840s and which took the townland as the geographical unit of valuation. The second and more extensive, was the tenement survey which valued individual property separately for the first time and which also valued all buildings in the townland for the first time, whereas, heretofore only the larger houses, principally those of the gentry had been valued in the first valuation.

Julia Donoghue and Mary Ryle

Ballyduff was valued in 1853 by which time most of our family seems to have left Ireland.  However, as the Griffiths record shows (see at the end), James’s wife Julia (or a daughter of the same name) was still living in the village.  And Mary Ryle, her daughter (or sister), was living down the road in Benmore.  Both were occupying houses with a garden.  Sean Ryle, Mary’s descendant, tells me that by 1864 Mary had taken over Julia’s house.

Future research

There is a lot more for me to do with the TABs and Griffiths.  I will research all the other names with which we are associated.

My next visit to Ireland will be to Dublin to look at the available land and will records.

The Registry of Deeds was founded in Dublin in 1708 but its heyday, in terms of popularity, was 1750-1830.  Most deeds in the Registry concern leases of land and property rather than ownership so the Registry of Deeds is not the exclusive preserve of the aristocracy or gentry.
For a lease to require registration, it needed to be for 31 years or three lives; such leases were more likely to involve 'second level' landlords.   Most farmers and small holders, had leases for a year (or 'at will') which were not registered.  It is probable that our ancestors fell into this category but it will be worth a look.
After the Famine, many landowners found themselves financially if not morally embarrassed. Parliament set up a Court to administer the sale of these insolvent estates in 1848/9 and pre-sale catalogues were produced to entice prospective buyers.   

These sale particulars provided details of tenants on the land, together with the value and terms of their tenancy or rental commitment. They cover the entire island of Ireland. Genealogical potential is significant, since more than 500,000 tenants are recorded in the collection.  These records are known as the Landed Estates Court Rentals and again are worth looking at.
The National Archives also holds many relevant records on wills and testamentary records and I will go through them.  To date I have felt that our folks and their spouses’ families were not wealthy enough for wills to be relevant but now I am not so sure.  We will see...

Sources and acknowledgements:'s_Valuation
Kerry during the Great Famine 1845-52 by Kieran Foley, UCD July 1997
The Great Famine in the Poor Law Unions of Dingle and Killarney 1845-52
Shane Lehane M.Phil. UCC

Friday, 2 November 2012

Thomas O’Donoghue in Grundy Street, Poplar in 1877 and the Royal Charlie pub

Thomas O’Donoghue in Grundy Street, Poplar in 1877 and the Royal Charlie pub

By Rod O’Donoghue

In 1877, when their daughter Mary Ann was born, Thomas and Mary O’Donoghue (my great grandparents) lived at 54 Grundy Street, Poplar.  Grundy Street ran into Chrisp Street then and still does.

I have taken to cycling into Bromley/Bow/Poplar on Sunday mornings to see what historic buildings I can find – takes me about 45 mins to get there.

At the end of Grundy Street in Chrisp Street today is a pub called the Royal Charlie.  Here’s a picture from the net. 

They state the landlord in 1877 was a Harrington, a surname that figures in our family history as a family friend/godparent (however don’t know it was him). 

My uncle Bernie once told me that No.54 was up the Chrisp Street end.  I have this image of Thomas and his mates walking down the road to have a pint in this pub – very evocative. 

One day I will go to the Tower Hamlets library and see if I can find an earlier picture of pub and street.

Sadly today the pub is for sale and looks rather run down with gaps on each side.

Friday, 31 August 2012

The search for Juliana, Elizabeth and Joanna Boyle in Causeway parish

Family history research comes down to a time consuming process of recording and analysis.  If you are very lucky you strike gold quickly but not when you have a great range of alternative possibilities.  Then you have to assemble and compare, putting aside the maybes for further work.  One might say that one was trying to bring order from chaos, particularly as Irish families of those times used the same name again and again.
I have to do this exercise for all the names with which our family was associated including Flahive, Ferris, Nelan, Dee, Ryle and then of course there are the (O’)Connors!
This blog runs the risk of not seeing trees for the wood, but here goes...
It seems that wives used their maiden names most of the time (but sometimes not) when acting as sponsors – adds to the general confusion.  I need to ask locally what the normal practice was, if there was one.
The incidence of Boyles versus Donoghues
I have said before that the Boyle name seems to be more common in Causeway than Donoghue and this data proves it.
There are so many townland names that it gets difficult to place them, so I have attached maps for Rattoo and Killury parishes at the end of the main text in this blog with acknowledgement to  The identification number used with the maps is shown in square brackets below in front of the townland name with R = Rattoo and K=Killury.
In Rattoo civil parish, the O’Donoghues are concentrated (more than 5 references for parents and sponsors) in [R19]Benmore/Ballyduff (26), [R33]Drommartin (21), [R1&7]Knoppoge (14), [R35]Ballincrossig (8) townlands. 

In Killury civil parish the concentration is in [K12]Dromnacarra (22), [K3]Kilmore (18) and [K10]Ardagh townlands.  All bar Dromnacarra (4 miles) are within 2 miles of Ballyduff.

The Boyle name for the same two civil parishes is, however, concentrated in many more townlands.

In Rattoo, the Boyles appear significantly in, [R30]Ballinbranhig (6), [35]Ballincrossig (20), [R19]Benmore/Ballyduff (24), [R33]Drommartin (14), [R30]Knockercreeveen (15), [R23]Rahealy (5), [R15]Rattoo (9), [R25]Sleveen (47), [R36]Tullaghna (28).

In Killury, we find them in [K2]Ardoughter (7), [K22]Ballinclemesig (12), [K15]Ballinglanna (47), [K9]Ballynaskreena (9), [K11]Castleshannon (7), [Town]Causeway (5), [K4]Cloghaneleesh (5), [K12]Dromnacarra (7), [K23]Lisduff (5), [K21]Rathmorrel (11).

In Killahan civil parish (still in Causeway RC parish), Clooneen contains (23) and in a townland, for which I have not been able to identify the civil parish, called Redfield there are (8).

The Boyle first names

In my last blog the Boyle names with their main events/dates found in Benmore/Ballyduff were:-
Generation One – Juliana’s sibling perhaps: Daniel (hus.1809-14), Patrick (sponsor 1814), Joanna (wife 1810, 1818), John (sp. 1810, 1818) and Catherine (sp.1812).

Generation Two – Juliana’s nephews and nieces perhaps: Joanna (wife to John Donoghue with kids 1838-45), Jude/Judith (sp.1844), Elizabeth (wife to James Donoghue with kids 1836-47), Julia (sp.1844), John (sp.1844), Brian (sp.1840), Ellen (sp.1840), Catherine (sp.1850), Mary (wife 1850).

This suggests that they were all from the same family group which is unlikely to be the case.  They could just have carried the same surname.

However most of these names are common in Causeway parish except perhaps for Juliana/Julia and Elizabeth.  The three cases we have in the tree are 
Generation One: James and Juliana Boyle – birth guess 1780s
Generation Two: James and Elizabeth Boyle – birth guess 1816
                            John and Joanna Boyle – birth guess 1819

The results

In going through all the Causeway townlands where Boyles occur I have ranked them as Probable, Possible and Unlikely in order to narrow down our alternatives.  The Probables and Possibles are noted below.

[25]Sleveen counts as gold dust.  There are more Boyles there than anywhere else bar Ballinglanna (same number, 47). 

In 1839 Joanna Boyle married John Donohue and he was Thomas, my gggrandfather’s, brother in my opinion.  Joanna and John named their first boy and girl, James (Donoghue) and Juliana (Boyle), which gives me confidence that John was their son.

There were a number of Boyle families in Sleveen because from 1828 to 1840, three Joannas had their first child.

All of our Boyle first names, bar Elizabeth, are there, in particular Brian which I have not found anywhere else.  Brian Boyle was a sponsor at the birth of John and Joanna’s daughter, Juliana, in 1840.   Brian was a father from 1808-25, his wife’s name was Mary Disset

Patrick (sp.1814) was a father in Sleveen from 1810-26.  His wife was Honora Connell; the Connell name has relevance in Poplar in 1851.

John (sp.1810, 1818) was also a father in Sleveen from 1810-14 and his wife was a Mary Connor, my gggrandmother’s name, but there were an awful lot of Mary Connors.

So we can say that they were probably Joanna’s siblings.

I am not, however, convinced that our Juliana Boyle came from Sleveen.  There is only one case of a Donoghue sponsor to Boyles in Sleveen and that was a Juliana Donoghue in 1848 which is a bit late for our Juliana and too early for the third generation Julianas (see family tree).  The implication of this is that the siblings that I have listed above for her may not have been her family at all; possibly related but not siblings or nephews and nieces.

I need to ask my contacts in Ballyduff how old sponsors for baptisms might have been, because if this was our Juliana she would have been in her sixties/seventies.

[R35]Ballincrossig is a Probable because virtually all the Boyle first names are present and there is a couple, Daniel Custello and Ellen Donoghue, for whom a Juliana Boyle was sponsor for their child Ellen in 1844.  They had two others Daniel and Joanna in 1848 for whom an Ellen Donoghue was sponsor.

There is an Elizabeth baptised in 1821, daughter to William Boyle and Julia Connor and another b.1820 to also a William Boyle but an Elizabeth Connor mother.  Our Elizabeth’s first child was born in 1836, so she would have been 15-16 unless her baptism was very delayed.  I think I am right in saying that there was no minimum age for marriage at that time but parental consent was needed if woman was under 21, so that is possible.

Clooneen is in Killahan civil parish but only 2.5 miles from Ballyduff.  Juliana Boyle and James Donohough are sponsors for John Donohough & Ellen Johnson at the baptism of their daughter Juliana in 1812.   This could have been James’s brother.  There are lots of Boyle and Donoghue events in this townland. 

In Ballyhennessy townland in Dysert 1 civil parish, about 5 miles from Ballyduff,  there is a baptism of a Thomas Donoghue in 1822 to parents John Donoghue and Mary Scanlan, for whom the sponsors are James and Julia Donoghue.  So there are a few of this combination  around!

[R33]Drommartin is a long shot but there is an O’Connor in the States with ancestry here who has Donoghue heritage in Benmore/Ballyduff, so perhaps...

[R32]Knockercreeveen is also a long shot but it has all the right names even if they are not of the right generation.  This has one of the few Elizabeths (b.1841), really too late for ours.

[K15]Ballinglanna has all the right names incl. Elizabeth (b.1837) but no Juliana.

So we have cracked Joanna Boyle and may have found Elizabeth.  Juliana’s origin place will remain an ongoing question, which may never be solved.

If you want to see the raw data, it is at the end of this blog!

Rattoo Civil Parish Townlands & Map

Many thanks to Sean Ruad for this data from the IreAtlas Townland Database
Rattoo is about 3 miles from top to toe as the crow flies.

Templenoe, Listowel PLU,
Munster Province
Ballyhorgan Marshes
Bishopscourt North
Bishopscourt South
Knoppoge North
Knoppoge South
Lacka East
Lacka West
Leagh Marshes
Rattoo Island

* Rattoo Island is a townland in Ratoo according to the "General Alphabetical Index to the Townlands of Ireland" 1851, but it is not on the map information we have available which are modeled after the Inner City Trust Maps, based on the Ordnance Survey completed in 1846.
** DNA = Does Not Apply (see below).
Towns/Townlands: "One of the confusing things about Irish government is that the "towns" for the most part really had no legal status. That is, no government function. They were just built-up areas. Therefore, you can't really look for "Ballylongford Town" on the Griffiths Valuation and find anything, (nor will you find them on Government Ordance Survey maps which our townland maps are based on - Waterlilys). It might be as many as a half dozen townlands which contain the areas which comprise the "Town of Ballylongford" or Castleisland or whatever." Ray Marshall. Therefore towns will be listed without acres or map numbers; instead you will see DNA = Does Not Apply.

Killury Civil Parish Townlands & Map

Killury civil parish runs along the west side of Rattoo.  Look for the spike in Rattoo, it fits into the insert below.  Some of these townlands are very close to Benmore/Ballyduff.

Killury is about 4-5 miles from top to toe

Killury Parish,
Listowel PLU,
Clanmaurice Barony,
Munster Province
Map #
Derryra Beg
Derryra More
Dromkeen East
Dromkeen West

* DNA = Does Not Apply.

5 or more entries in the register makes a townland relevant.  Names listed are Boyle parents, children (including to Boyle wives) and sponsors.

Addergown: 3, Juliana (1783, child Edmund), Ellen (wife 1831-5), Catherine (1833).  Donoghues: None  UNLIKELY
Ardoughter: 7, Honora, John, Richard, Julia (1838), James, Thomas, Daniel (1846), Mary (1849), Brigid, Patrick (1851).  Donoghues: Patrick (1830s) and wife Julia (1851) UNLIKELY
Ballinbranhig: 6, James, Mary (wife 1813-16, dau, John, Joanna (wife 1813 & dau. 1813 & 1826), Bridget, Michael, Thomas.  Donoghues: None UNLIKELY
Ballincrossig: 20, Mary (wife 1783-4, b.1812, sp.1837), Patrick (sp.1784, b.1809), Terence, Margaret, William, John (sp.1817), Daniel (sp.1819), Ellen (b.1815, sp.1829), Michael, Juliana (b.1817 and b.1826 (same parents), sp.1844 Ellen Donohue, sp.1845 Patrick Connor), Elizabeth (b.1820, b.1821), Catherine (sp.1842).  Donoghues: Mary Donohue wife 1828-42, Brigid wife 1840, Ellen wife 1842-8) POSSIBLE because all the Boyle first names are present and there is a couple, Daniel Custello and Ellen Donoghue, for whom a Juliana Boyle was sponsor for their child Ellen in 1844.  They had two others, Daniel and Joanna, in 1848 for whom an Ellen Donoghue was sponsor.  There is also an Elizabeth b.1821 to William Boyle and Julia Connor and another b.1820 to also a William Boyle but an Elizabeth Connor.  If Elizabeth’s first child was born in 1836 she would have been 15-16 unless her baptism was very delayed.  I think I am right in saying that there was no minimum age for marriage at that time but parental consent was needed if woman was under 21.
Ballynaskreena: 9, Joanna (sp.1822), Catherine (wife 1824), Patrick (sp.1835 Mary Connor, sp. 1843) Michael, Margaret, John (sp.1850), Debora, William.  Donoghues: John & Catherine Donohue sp.1859 UNLIKELY
Benmore/Ballyduff: Covered on earlier blog.
Contacts: Ryle in Ireland
Cloghaneleesh: 5, Terence, Patrick (b.1841), Bridget, Juliana (b.1848), Thomas, Michael, Margaret, Mary (b.1849).  Donoghues: Margaret sp.1836 UNLIKELY
Drommartin: 14, Mary (sp.1785), John (sp.1810 James Connor), William, Ellen (sp.1821, wife 1826 sp. Margaret Donohue, sp.1844 James Donohue), James, Margaret, Catherine (sp.1840), Thomas, Jasper.  Donoghues: Lots.  POSSIBLE
Contacts: O’Connor in US
Knockercreeveen: 15, John (sp.1810, 1825, 1831 all Boyle families), Daniel (hus 1817-21), James, Mary (b.1818), Patrick (hus 1818-40, son 1832), Thomas, Helen (b.1822), Juliana (b.1817, b.1825, wife 1846), Johanna (b.1834), Honora (b.1840), Judith (sp.1834), Ellen (wife 1831), Eleanor, Elizabeth (b.1841).  Donoghues: Margaret wife 1810, John sp.1821 & James sp.1824.  POSSIBLE - lots of right names plus one of few Elizabeths anywhere but low chance.
Lisnagoneeny: Same Donoghue woman called Judith, Julia, Juliana
Rahealy: 5, Mary (wife 1832 Thomas Connor, 1834 John Connor), Ellen (sp.1836, wife 1838-43), Juliana (sp.1851), John (b.1834), Patrick (b.1838), Martin.  Donoghues: Ann sp.1819, Mary sp.1840.  UNLIKELY - but lot of Boyle & Connor interactions
Rattoo: 9, Ellen (wife 1783), Honora, Patrick (hus.1822), Mary (sp.1822), Thomas, Margaret, John (hus.1840), Maurice.  Donoghues: Daniel hus.1819, John & Catherine sp.1819, Julia sp.Gunn 1832.  UNLIKELY
Sleveen: 47, John (sp.1784, hus.1810-14 wife Mary Connor sp. Brian, b.1815, hus. 1835), Brian (hus.1808-25, b.1826, sp.1815, sp.1820, 1824, 1827, 1845), Patrick (hus.1810-26, sp.1812, 1825, hus.1839, b.1844), Mary (b.1812, sp.1819, sp.1840 x 2), Joanna (b.1808, sp.1823, 1827, wife1828-39, wife 1836-48, b.1848, sp.1838, 1842, wife 1839 John Donohue), David, Michael, Ellen (sp.1824, 1835, 1837, 1839, wife 1849), Thomas, Catherine (sp.1835, wife 1839), Margaret, Julia (sp.1852), Daniel (b.1827), Winifred, Gobnet, Timothy, Edmund.  Donoghues: Lots.  PROBABLE/CERTAIN
Tullaghna: 28, Thomas, James, Mary (wife 1809-15, wife 1822, wife 1831-42, b. 1834, wife 1831, sp.1835, 1840, 1841, wife 1847), Patrick (b.1809, 1825, sp. 1825), Terence, John (b.1815, hus.1824, sp.1831, 1833, 1837), Catherine (sp.1839, 1842, b.1839), Ellen (wife 1833-42),  Joanna (b.1835), Matthew, Daniel (b.1835, 1842), Margaret, William, Bridget, Honora, Denis, Cornelius, Michael.  Donoghues: John & James hus.1784, Ann wife 1786, Dermot hus.1831, James hus.1831, James sp.1861.  UNLIKELY

Ballinclemesig: 12, Mary (wife 1812, sp.1830, 1839, wife 1834, b. 1834, 1842), Catherine (b.1812), Patrick (sp.1830, 1836, 1840, b. 1847, hus.1850) Margaret, Ann, Joanna (b.1837), Bridget, Michael, Ellen (b.1852), Elizabeth (b.1850), John (hus.1851), William, Juliana (b.1851).  Donoghues: None.  UNLIKELY
Ballinglanna: 47, Patrick (sp.1783, hus.1784,b.1811, b.1812, sp.1826, b.1847, b.1846, hus.1848-9),  Thomas, Joanna (wife 1807, b.1830, b.1809, b.1833, b.1834, b.1850), Terence, John (sp.1808, b.1827, sp.1823, b.1826, hus.1832-51, b.1851, b.1839, sp.1846, Michael, Margaret, Mary (wife 1808-30, b.1808, sp.1830, b.1814, sp.1823, sp.1826, wife 1825-6, sp.1825, b.1826, b.1834, b.1848, sp.1846, sp.1850), Catherine (b.1810, b.1821, sp.1821, b.1836, wife 1850), Daniel (b.1815), Elizabeth (b.1837), Ellen (b.1844, wife 1836-48), Honora, Bridget, Timothy.  Donoghues: Bridget sp.1846.  All the right names incl. Elizabeth but no Juliana so POSSIBLE
Contacts: Boyle in US
Castleshannon: 7, Margaret, Juliana (wife 1826-44), Joanna (b.1825), Patrick (b.1830, sp.1840, hus.1827-44, b.1844), Mary (b.1826, b.1836), William, John (b.1840), Bridget, Michael, Thomas, Julia (b.1838).  Donoghues: Some - Maurice, John & Joanna, Bridget.  UNLIKELY but Ryle connection?
Causeway: 5, William, John (sp.1809), Mary (b.1827), Honora.  Donoghues: John & Ellen sp.1810, Ellen wife 1833, sp.1860.  UNLIKELY
Dromnacarra: 9, Margaret, Catherine (b.1807, sp.1842, Thomas, Joanna (b.1809, 1814, Bridget, Daniel (b.1817, Michael, Patrick (b.1824, sp.1842, John (b.1827, sp.1855), Mary (wife 1833-42, Ellen (sp.1855), Michael.  Donoghues: Lots, particularly Bartholomew sp.1819, b.1823 to Margaret Donohue, sp.1822, sp.1826, hus.1826.  Possible because of Bartholomew but as he gets married to a Mary Moore in 1826 UNLIKELY
Lisduff: 5, John, Mary.  Donoghues: None.   UNLIKELY
Rathmorrel: 11, Mary, John, Ellen, Patrick, Bridget, Richard, Michael, Martin, Terence.  Donoghues: None.  UNLIKELY

Clooneen: 23, Thomas, John (hus.1809-32, sp. 1809, 1818,1820, 1841), Catherine (sp.1809, 1832, 1835, wife 1849), Mary (wife 1809, sp.1836, wife 1835), Juliana (sp.1812 with James Donohough for John Donohough & Ellen Johnson, sp.1846), Ellen (b.1809, b.1836, 1844), Patrick (b.1818), Margaret, Honora, James.  Donoghues: Lots and James and Juliana/Julia.  PROBABLE

Unknown civil parishes:
Redfield: 8, Honora, Thomas, Catherine (sp.1835, b.1839), Mary (wife 1835-47), Margaret, Morgan, James, Ellen (b.1847), Patrick  (sp.1845), Elizabeth (sp.1845).  Donoghues: None.  UNLIKELY
Vagrant: only 2, but one is Elizabeth (sp.1835).  Donoghues: One, Dermot.  UNLIKELY